With the War on Terror in Afghanistan and the campaign in Iraq (although the trend has started long before) we have been hearing increase complain about the dismal performance of the 9×19mm Parabellum against human targets.

I find this a little interesting/unusual compared to the Vietnam War when the Browning Hi Power with its 13 round capacity of 9×19mm was a favourite of U.S. personals, rivalling the M1911, especially for those SOF going on missions up North or over the fence to neighbouring countries.

Was the performance of the 9×19mm not as noticeable back then or was there other factor involved, like the soldiers were mostly shooting at bushes instead of enemies while they perform Immediate Action drill (sarcasm)?

We have improved our systems analysis. My problem with the customer surveys is the effect of "Gun Talk" on the opinions of the troops. There are a LOT of .45 Fans "over there" and blogging over here about the 9mm vs .45 ACP, and all of that information is bound to affect the OPINIONS.

The problem is, those user opinions ARE very important and unfortunately affected by advertising of all sorts.

Geoff
Who figures we should standardize the .40 S&W as the NATO 10.17x21.6 or specs to that effect.
Who does not feel naked and helpless with his 9mm SWaMPy, .45 MkIV S70, or his .38 Special bodyguard. But with the LCP in .380..

I've heard very few complaints about the performance of the standard 9mm NATO cartridge. The same can't be said for its primary platform, the M9. I had one lock up on me during some last minute training in Kuwait circa 2004...blowing sand got in the action. There was also a problem with the early Checkmate magazines that were issued - they were parkerized, and the everpresent grit that got into everything would cause the followers to stick. I had Household 6 send me a few blued PB-stamped and Italian manufactured magazines (thanks to the then-recent Brady Law sunset, she had no problem getting them). That helped, and Checkmate apparently fixed their mag issues since.

Of course, there were quite a few .45's on the ground when I was there - lots of HK USP's, Glock 21's, and a smattering of 1911's. Most common pistol in Iraq, carried by contractors, Iraqi soldiers, police and others, to include other USG employees? The Glock 19. And everyone that carried them (that I saw and talked to anyway) were very happy to have them.

To the first, now you know why they have Hi-Cap magazines in them. You need all that extra 9mil to effect a stop. Now, before I get all the 9mm mavens in an uproar, I'm speaking strictly FMJ ammunition.

I agree on the other factor. Seen it! Spray the jungle and pray!

It certainly goes against expectations, but most post mortem (Morgue Monsters) studies indicate that .45 and 9x19 ball have similar stopping stats; in the 60% range. The larger .45 allows a little more leeway in shot placement, though.

That said, I find the simple size of a .45 bullet comforting.

Just like in Real Estate, location, location, location. Or more clearly, placement, placement, placement!

Source please

I spent a year assisting with medicolegal autopsies during my PhD, and during one post of an officer-involved shooting there were three calibers associated with the victim: 9mm, .45, and .223. While there were visible differences between the three types of wound channels, the differences were most obvious at the point of entry. In that particular example the lone .45 hit was in the shoulder, which is not very comparable to thoracic hits from 9mm.

That said, the internal destruction between the 9mm and .45 is notably different in most cases, though whether or not the increased level of destruction from the .45 leads to vastly increased stopping power is somewhat debatable. I'm talking the difference between ground beef and chopped beef, which for those on the receiving end likely makes little difference in the end (these are primarily HP ammo types, FMJ wasn't as commonly seen). Shot placement as always was the determining factor between an immediate stop and a lingering death.

CeePee, you are a worthy successor to Dean!

I read the comparisons years ago, but I can't remember the citation. I DO know it had nothing to do with goats, though.

To one and all, I apologize for the lack.

I'm pretty sure they didn't shoot any goats with ball anyhow.

Just on the surface since we're pretty sure that both will pass through a body so it seems logical that a bigger hole is a better hole so there is more surface area to bleed.

I think the whole concept of "stopping power" is irrevocably flawed because no small arm projectile can stop anything. People who fall down when shot do so because of gravity... they just do it faster or slower depending on where they are hit.

The "operator" tradition of the Browning Hi-Power comes into play: Remember it isn't just that it is an excellent pistol. SAS or U.S. Special Forces soldiers are likely to shoot well.

I also recall that the Smith and Wesson Model 39 was a favorite of U.S. Special Forces soldiers in Vietnam, so much so that a custom "Hush Puppy" version was developed. So there's another 9mm handgun that was a favorite of U.S. Special Forces operators.

Wasn't the "hush puppy" a model 59?

The "Hush Puppy" seems to have been a modiefied 39, sort of a step between the 39 and the 59.

The puppy was apparently a modified 39, which so impressed the U.S. Navy that they gave feedback to S&W for the eventual Model 59 design that followed.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/pistols/us_pist ... wesson.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson_Model_59

Multiple references from Evan Marshall over several decades. Here's one:

Handgun Stopping Power, by Evan Marshall, pp. 62 and 92

Whether you agree with him or not is up to you, but Marshall is the source of the figure.

V/R
Mike

Thanks Mike. I guess I should have known.

I really like Evan and we've had some great discussions and can disagree without being disagreeable.