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 Post subject: Reclaiming History versus the Conspiracy Theorists
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2007 18:18 
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I'm surprised no one has yet made reference to Vincent Bugliosi's new book, Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

It is supposed to be the most comprehensive, exhaustive and lengthy review of the Kennedy Assassination ever written, including the Warren Commission Report.

Some statistics:
    USA Release Date: May 15, 2007.
    Published by W.W. Norton & Co.
    1,664 Pages (plus 1,128 pages on accompanying CD-ROM).
    40 Chapters, Plus Introduction.
    32 Pages of Photos/Illustrations.
    6 Pages of Charts/Diagrams.
    71-Page Index.
    Hardcover.
In his review of the book, David Von Pein says, "This massive 1,664-page book is accompanied by a CD-ROM, which contains an additional 958 pages of endnotes and another 170 pages of source notes. So the total number of pages adds up to a mind-blowing 2,792. (And that figure can be increased still further if the 32 unnumbered pages of photos are figured into the total; so that would put the final page count at 2,824.)

When counting the endnotes on the CD-ROM, this mighty publication logs in at 1,535,791 total words....an impressive stat by anyone's standards."

Von Pein has posted a three-part review of the book which comments on the content of each chapter of the book, and which contains links to other resources including autopsy photos of President Kennedy.

After reaching the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and was the sole assassin of President Kennedy, Bugliosi moves on to demolish all of the most prominent conspiracy theories one by one.

Reading just the three part book review without checking out the links to other sites can take more than two hours. The first part of the review is at
Reclaiming History Book Review and at the bottom of the review is a link to the second part.

Because of my past occupation I have often had friends and acquaintances ask my opinion of various conspiracy theories. The assassination was shortly before my time at the Service, but I was required to study the Warren Report when I began work there. I read it from the perspective of an experienced law enforcement officer with several years of experience. I also subsequently worked with and had among my friends many of the agents who were in the motorcade in Dallas, including Clint Hill. I have always supported the Warren Commission conclusions and Vince Bugliosi has strongly reinforced my belief that I was correct in my belief.

There are, of course, Conspiracy Theorists who will never be convinced.

:roll:


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PostPosted: 08 Jul 2007 18:49 
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CASE CLOSED by Gerald Posner, released about 14 years ago, was also a pretty comprehensive book with a similar thesis.
CONSPIRACY OF ONE, by Jim Moore, released about the same time, is somewhat less comprehensive (dealing with incidents generally within and in the immediate surroundings of the Texas Book Depository Building) book but coming to the same conclusion.
I'm sure Bugliosi's book is fine. Over the years I have read many of the "conspiracy" books and have found some of them entertaining and mildly convincing -- until, that is, one starts to question the assertions made in them, and realize that many are made gratuitously (without support) and are based on incorrect assumptions, such as the idea that Oswald's shot that went through Kennedy's throat and then entered Governor Connolly had to perform various "zig-zag" maneuvers. If an investigator places both people in the "X-100" car CORRECTLY then it becomes clear what actually happened, and that it involves no abherations to the laws of physics.
Other problems abound, but I won't go into that -- I guess I will refer those who wish to know them to Bugliosi's book!!! :D
I hope Bugliosi's wearing asbestos clothing -- he's gonna be really, really singed by the believers out there.....
[center] :flameon: [/center]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2007 19:26 
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All credible evidence I've seen in the last decade or so has pointed to Oswald and only Oswald firing the fatal shots. I'm convinced on that point.

As to what/who Oswald was involved with beyond that, I have no idea. Maybe Bugliosi's book clears all that up, too.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2007 19:51 
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For reasons I've never been able to fathom, some people seem to have a deep NEED for conspiracy stories.
They take great comfort that there are vast conspiracy's of large, shadowy, mysterious groups bent on world domination.
Sickeningly for me, they also love the idea our own government is composed of murderous Fascist's out to convert us all to slaves or mindless drones.

From the Lincoln assassination, to the Kennedy assassination, to Marilyn Monroe's drug and booze addled suicide, to the moon landing, to 9-11, these loony toons come up with these theories that simply defy logic and common sense.

The JFK situation comes under the heading of "The Great Man syndrome".
This holds that a Great Man exiting his mansion and entering his limo slips on a banana peel, falls and dies of a broken neck.
The Great Man syndrome says that Great Men CANNOT die such stupid, common-man deaths.

It HAS TO BE a Great Conspiracy.
The banana peel was planted, he was shoved by an impostor bodyguard, he was actually shot by a bullet made of ice, etc, etc, etc.

Under the Great Man syndrome, JFK was killed by some hellish cabal composed of Lyndon Johnson, Castro, the FBI, the CIA, the Mafia, and the Boy Scouts of America.
The conspiracy nuts simple cannot accept that Camelot was killed by a pathetic little loser, who only succeeded in one thing in his life, and that was to make a rather easy shot at near point blank range.

When these nuts start claiming that a missile struck the Pentagon, when literally hundreds of people stood there and watched an airliner fly into it, or when they claim "They" blew up the World Trade Center when thousands of people on the spot on on TV watched planes fly into them, and when Ossama Bin Laden SAID he was responsible, they need help, not argument.

Unfortunately, Bugliosi will have no more success at convincing people who will not BE convinced.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2007 23:56 
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I think many people just cannot believe a single person could pull something monumental off, so to them, it has to be the work of a group or gang. What they do not realize is a lone person seldom argues with himself over his plans, or goes off and does something unplanned he does not know about.

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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2007 00:32 
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I still want to see someone use a Mannlicher Carcano with the same scope and mounts repeat the same accuracy and rate of fire at a moving target.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2007 00:41 
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[center]
djl4570 wrote:
I still want to see someone use a Mannlicher Carcano with the same scope and mounts repeat the same accuracy and rate of fire at a moving target.
[/center]

Actually, I believe this has been done more than once.
Gerald Posner, in CASE CLOSED points out that the Warren Commision's conclusion that Oswald fired the shots in a space of 5 seconds is incorrect; a computer enhanced version of the Zapruder film provides Posner with evidence that Oswald actually had about eleven seconds to fire the three shots.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2007 01:06 
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The last test firing I saw was on a TV show a couple of years ago.

They duplicated everything.
The shooter had the exact same rifle, scope, and ammo.
He was in a box placed at the exact height, and facing the same direct to the sun.

The test targets were a ballistics jell dummies, seated in the exact positions JFK and Connelly were in a remote control cart that moved at the exact speed the limo did.

The shooter had NO trouble getting off the shots and hitting the targets.
As I recall, the bullet hit both targets just like in real life.

There have been a number of firing tests done over the years, and it's been well-proven that a moderately competent shooter who's familiar with that model of rifle can make the shots.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2007 09:59 
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dfariswheel wrote:
The last test firing I saw was on a TV show a couple of years ago.

They duplicated everything.
The shooter had the exact same rifle, scope, and ammo.
He was in a box placed at the exact height, and facing the same direct to the sun.

The test targets were a ballistics jell dummies, seated in the exact positions JFK and Connelly were in a remote control cart that moved at the exact speed the limo did.

The shooter had NO trouble getting off the shots and hitting the targets.
As I recall, the bullet hit both targets just like in real life.

There have been a number of firing tests done over the years, and it's been well-proven that a moderately competent shooter who's familiar with that model of rifle can make the shots.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2007 10:39 
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All the stuff about ballistics and lone shooter this and that adds up to nothing. Its the coincidence that Norma Jean died, JFK was assasinated, LBJ coming into the Oval Office, Vietnam escalates, and the year after JFK was killed was the last of the 90% silver coinage.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.....

.... it just might be a duck even if others say its a cow.

I'm no theorist, but the whole JFK thingy looks funny to me.

jolly

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2007 11:08 
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Vietnam was a Kennedy project. Had he lived, the build-up would have probably occurred. How the war was prosecuted may have been different, but we'd still have been there, in force.

Monroe was a Hollywood martinet. High-strung and unstable. It WAS probably a coincidence, unless Jackie had her whacked.

The last of the 90% coinage was just that, the LAST. I think that you'll find, with a minimal amount of research, that the planning had been in place BEFORE JFK was assassinated.

The Carcano Carbines weren't considered, at the time, as suitable weapons for the job. Now, why that was probably has as much to do with post-WWII sentiment about Axis weaponry as anything. When, in fact, the real Carcano was easily capable of that type of mechanical accuracy.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2007 11:32 
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I believe those to be facts JR.

But I don't believe in coincidence. No matter what the facts are, it still looks funny. Of course, maybe its just my point of view.

jolly

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2007 15:14 
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If it was a conspiricy it was a really good one. I can't imagine that all of the people involved could have kept their mouths shut all this time. I spent some time in military intelligence in Europe, and I can tell you the intell people wouldn't touch a guy like Oswald with a ten foot pole. Other than to check him out. They would never employ a guy like that. As some writers have claimed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2007 15:37 
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jollynator wrote:
I believe those to be facts JR.

But I don't believe in coincidence. No matter what the facts are, it still looks funny. Of course, maybe its just my point of view.

jolly


I'm curious to hear what your "non-coincidence" incidents add up to.

Who is guilty of what?

And why did they do it?

----------------------------------------------

On a non-related subject, regarding the timing for the shooting; this from the book review:

"Inadvertently, Director Stone shoots himself in the foot RIGHT ON CAMERA when the Garrison assistant (played by Jay Sanders) actually debunks one of the main contentions purported in the film....i.e., the contention that Oswald didn't have enough time to get off his three shots in the amount of time Stone, per the movie, says LHO had (5.6 seconds).

Indeed, we can clock Sanders' recycling of the bolt-action rifle he uses in the film, and guess how many seconds it takes Sanders (portraying investigator Lou Ivon) to dry-fire three shots? Answer: 5.5 seconds.

Kevin Costner (playing Garrison) tells Sanders/Ivon that it took "between 6, 7 seconds", but he was wrong. Just cue up the DVD of the movie yourself and watch your player's time counter and see. (On the DVD which contains the longer "Director's Cut" version of the movie, the scene in question occurs at the 1:14:50 mark of the film.)

Irony at its finest indeed"

jollynator wrote:
I'm no theorist, but the whole JFK thingy looks funny to me.


Actually, you sound like one. But, perhaps if you read the book (or at least the book review) your mind would be put at rest.

Certainly there is no indication that the lone assassin, Oswald, had any interest in Marilyn Monroe, Vietnam, or silver coinage.

And, if you live long enough you will see enough coincidences to become a believer in them.



:wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2007 16:30 
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Funny you mention a movie I haven't seen. As history is a hobby of mine, I try to look for facts which are notoriously rare in hollywood.

That being said, there is a lot that none knows. Though somehow, somewhere, someone does. You can bank on that.

Maybe I am a kind of theorist. But I try not to speculate.

My "silver coinage" statement refers to the so-called coincidence that JFK was assasinatied the year before the last of the Constitutional money was coined. I cannot tell you exactly why but I have a sneaking suspicion that it was about money. Not so much as possesion of money but power over it.

You may call this a coincidence. But like I said, I don't know enough to make a full statement. I will let you know when I have it all.

jolly

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